Author Topic: KOS Clarification: All rules in ONE post.  (Read 16541 times)

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Offline [TS] Kayna Eelai

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KOS Clarification: All rules in ONE post.
« on: March 26, 2014, 05:59:09 pm »
This post is meant to gather all KOS related rules into one single post, for easier finding (and linking) and understanding of the rules without having to search in several posts and subforums.

KOS SEARCH ORDER

You must check using the following order Pilot > Alliance > Corporation.

If a Corporation is KOS and Alliance isn't please file a KOS request for the Alliance with proof and consider them KOS.

If Pilot is KOS remains so even if Corp or Alliance aren’t

RULES
The easy part is when the CVA KOS checker shows a player as KOS, but sometimes a little more investigation is needed.
Specially if the pilot is not listed at all in the CVA KOS checker or when he is currently in a NPC corp

1) NPC corp [Minmatar Milita NPC Corp (Tribal Liberation Front)] is considered KOS and is to be treated like a player corp when it comes to KOS checking. (source: Minmatar Militia post)
EXAMPLE FOR THIS SCENARIO
* Pilot neutral
* current: NPC corp
* previous: [Minmatar Milita NPC Corp (Tribal Liberation Front)]
* previous: blue corp or alliance
= PILOT IS KOS / because of last player corp being KOS. remember: Minmatar Militia is to be considered player corp for this matters.

2) All other NPC corps are considered the same, regardless if they are normal or militia/factional warfare ones.
EXAMPLE FOR THIS SCENARIO
* Pilot neutral
* current: NPC corp
* previous: [Amarr Militia NPC Corp (24th Imperial Crusade)]
* previous: red corp or alliance
= PILOT IS KOS / because of last player corp being KOS

3) It doesn't matter if a pilot has been in 1 or multiple NPC corps, what counts is his last player corp.
EXAMPLE FOR THIS SCENARIO
* Pilot neutral
* current: NPC corp
* previous: NPC corp
* previous: KOS corp or alliance
= PILOT IS KOS / because of last player corp being KOS

4) 1-man player corps do count like any other player corporation and are NOT KOS. If the pilot acts retarded he will be set KOS on a personal basis, so he will be KOS even if joining another corp. (Source: One man corps post)
EXAMPLE FOR THIS SCENARIO
* Pilot neutral
* current: neutral player corp. quick background check reveals it's a 1-man corp
* previous: red corp or alliance
= PILOT IS NOT KOS / because 1-man corps are no exception and considered equally valid like any other player corps


USE THE BRAIN
No rules are ever perfect or fair for everyone.
Don't just use the KOS checking tools, try to investigate on your own too. Check pilot/corp/alliance history.
For example it might be possible that a player has been 1 year in a NPC corp and his last alliance was set KOS just 3 days ago or he might just have started playing again or even bought the character.
It might not be fair, but that pilot would now be KOS. You could try to convo him, warn him that he is now KOS and encourage him to join a friendly NOT KOS corp.


OUTRO
Hello,

This was initially an "intro" but I decided to leave it for the end of the post for better viewing of the post:

As I spend lot of time on forums and chats, I have seen way too much confusion, misinformation and drama going on when it comes to define if a player is KOS or not, specially when it comes to the infamous "RED BY LAST" rule, which needed some clarifications. That's the main reason for this post.
Even veterans are confused sometimes about this rules.
And it's understandable, there are several small rules that aren't really consolidated into one place and it can become a nightmare to find all the info.
Some rules/clarifications weren't even written down and have only been passed through chat, making it even more difficult

So I decided to gather all the KOS related rules into one single post and make it as easy to understand as possible. Have it certified by our KOS admins and maybe make it sticky here on forums and intel channel MOTD

If you think something should be modified, removed or added, please let me know and I will see what I can do.


SOURCES
Above linked posts &
CVA KOS checker: http://kos.cva-eve.org/
CVA FAQ: http://www.cva-eve.org/index.php?page=faq
This post has been validated by: RattlerUND (KOS admin)


One post to rule them all, one post to find them; one post to bring them all
and in the same place bind them.

Kayna Eelai

last edit: adding a missing header text
« Last Edit: July 27, 2014, 09:02:19 am by [RNNF] Kayna Eelai »

Offline [-DFR-] Alfred Yvormes

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Re: KOS Clarification: All rules in ONE post.
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2014, 03:49:05 pm »
This explanation of the rules is onerous and works (barely) for PvP players. It works not at all for miners or ratters who must warp immediately to safety whenever a neutral warps into the system, then begin a rigorous 5 minute or more drill down to determine if the neutral is KOS or Not KOS.

Situation for an example:
Character: night lancer shows as "Not KOS" on the CVA KOS checker - thus I'm finished, right? Well, not so fast. Apparently not as I was berated in the intel channel for not declaring him KOS. Someone thinks he is KOS by a previous corp.

CVA cross-checker = "Not KOS" should mean I'm all done and this toon should be relatively safe. (takes just a few seconds for me)
CVA cross-checker = "KOS" well, get to safety or take this guy out. (takes just a few seconds for me)
CVA cross-checker = "No results found" ok, now I bring up info on character and check his corp/alliance looking for something other than "No results found" in the CVA KOS checker. If toon is in an NPC (yes, I printed them all out for reference) then check first previous non-NPC. If everything remains "No results found" I go to http://evewho.com/ and recheck the corp and zkillboard. (this can take up to 5 minutes).

If the CVA cross-checker cannot be relied upon for accurate information then a disclaimer should be posted and all carebears should be warned to get safe and stay safe whenever a neutral is in system. Even more extreme CVA PvP ships should escort the neutral in all CVA systems, just in case they decide to get aggressive.

Offline [TS] DuckHerder

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Re: KOS Clarification: All rules in ONE post.
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2014, 07:25:02 pm »
all carebears should be warned to get safe and stay safe whenever a neutral is in system.

Umm... Isn't this what everyone tells ratters all the time? Ratting with neuts in local = asking to get ganked.

Also, for anyone who can't be bothered spending 10min looking up if someone is KOS or not, I highly recommend Pikalou's KOS Overlay (http://forum.cva-eve.org/index.php?topic=4805.0). Select a character in local, Ctrl-A, Ctrl-C, Ctrl-C and your done. It checks everyone automatically and does all the last corp and militia checks. Easy, reliable and takes 10 seconds.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2014, 07:31:42 pm by [.KVA.] DuckHerder »

Offline [IRNP] Cherri Minoa

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Re: KOS Clarification: All rules in ONE post.
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2014, 06:25:20 pm »
Quote from: [RNNF
KOS SEARCH ORDER

You must check using the following order Pilot > Alliance > Corporation.

...

If Pilot is KOS remains so even if Corp or Alliance aren’t



This is incorrect and causes massive confusion. Could it be amended please.

Offline [TLOS] xHjfx

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Re: KOS Clarification: All rules in ONE post.
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2014, 07:45:40 pm »
Quote from: [RNNF
KOS SEARCH ORDER

You must check using the following order Pilot > Alliance > Corporation.

...

If Pilot is KOS remains so even if Corp or Alliance aren’t



This is incorrect and causes massive confusion. Could it be amended please.

Err I hate to burst your bubble but it is correct, vetted by a KOS admin and now confirmed by the dude managing the KOS team.

Also as per the CVA FAQ:

Quote
You mentioned a KOS list, What’s that?

CVA has a KOS (Kill on Sight) list that is available at http://kos.cva-eve.org/. This list can only be viewed using the in-game browser. If you can’t access it, then contact a CVA diplomat.

You must check using the following order Pilot > Alliance > Corporation. If a Corporation is KOS and Alliance isn’t please file a KOS request for the Alliance with proof and consider them KOS. If Pilot is KOS remains so even if Corp or Alliance aren’t.

Questions?


Yuri Drocher > I'd hit it so hard that whoever pulled me out would be crowned the next king of England

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Offline [IRNP] Cherri Minoa

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Re: KOS Clarification: All rules in ONE post.
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2014, 08:28:52 pm »
The priority has to be Alliance > Corp > PIlot or there would be chaos. In any case, the brand new KOS checker at http://local.cva-eve.org/index.php uses that priority as you can see from this image:



The older KOS checker at http://kos.cva-eve.org/ is more confusing, but gives the correct result once you expand it and apply the rule Alliance > Corp > Pilot.

If you look at the MOTD for "The Citadel" you will see that it says "Previously KOS pilots in new 1 man corps are NOT KOS unless they continue to act retarded [sic]". This clearly shows that the NOT KOS status of the corp - even if it is a one man player corp - takes priority over the KOS status of the pilot.

The only time that the KOS status of the pilot is relevant is when he or she is in a NPC corp - in that case, a personal KOS takes priority over any past corp history.

Offline [MW] Luna Amouh

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Re: KOS Clarification: All rules in ONE post.
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2014, 08:39:24 pm »

If you look at the MOTD for "The Citadel" you will see that it says "Previously KOS pilots in new 1 man corps are NOT KOS unless they continue to act retarded [sic]". This clearly shows that the NOT KOS status of the corp - even if it is a one man player corp - takes priority over the KOS status of the pilot.


Obviously this applies in cases of "KOS by last", not if the pilot is individually set as KOS. Otherwise a KOS pilot could create his own 1 man corp, kill miners, get set as KOS, switch to a new 1 man corp, kill miners, get set as KOS, switch ... which would be retarded.

Offline [IRNP] Cherri Minoa

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Re: KOS Clarification: All rules in ONE post.
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2014, 08:46:29 pm »
The "KOS by last" rule only applies when checking a pilot in an NPC corp, so that wouldn't arise in the case quoted from the MOTD which is referring to a player corp. In any case, the main issue is that the latest CVA KOS Checker - the one we have been told is fully reliable and should be used at all times - uses the priority Alliance > Corp > Pilot to arrive at its results.

If every pilot who had ever been set KOS in Providence was still treated as such after they joined a blue corp or alliance, we could simplify the whole process by just shooting everyone !

Offline [TLOS] xHjfx

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Re: KOS Clarification: All rules in ONE post.
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2014, 09:51:57 pm »
The priority has to be Alliance > Corp > PIlot or there would be chaos. In any case, the brand new KOS checker at http://local.cva-eve.org/index.php uses that priority as you can see from this image:



The older KOS checker at http://kos.cva-eve.org/ is more confusing, but gives the correct result once you expand it and apply the rule Alliance > Corp > Pilot.

If you look at the MOTD for "The Citadel" you will see that it says "Previously KOS pilots in new 1 man corps are NOT KOS unless they continue to act retarded [sic]". This clearly shows that the NOT KOS status of the corp - even if it is a one man player corp - takes priority over the KOS status of the pilot.

The only time that the KOS status of the pilot is relevant is when he or she is in a NPC corp - in that case, a personal KOS takes priority over any past corp history.



kos.cva-eve.org is authoritative... as has been stated.

I've told no one it's fully reliable hence the huge beta tag, if people choose to start chinese whispers.... I don't know until I hear about them.

Anyway it's on the list however as stated:

Pilot -> Alliance -> Corporation


If you look at the MOTD for "The Citadel" you will see that it says "Previously KOS pilots in new 1 man corps are NOT KOS unless they continue to act retarded [sic]". This clearly shows that the NOT KOS status of the corp - even if it is a one man player corp - takes priority over the KOS status of the pilot.


Obviously this applies in cases of "KOS by last", not if the pilot is individually set as KOS. Otherwise a KOS pilot could create his own 1 man corp, kill miners, get set as KOS, switch to a new 1 man corp, kill miners, get set as KOS, switch ... which would be retarded.

This is correct... Pilot level KOS are issued to those who abuse the system and create corps to try and evade KOS

If the guy is pilot level KOS and continues to make corporations to try and evade, he is still KOS...
« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 09:53:45 pm by [TLOS] xHjfx »


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Offline [IRNP] Cherri Minoa

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Re: KOS Clarification: All rules in ONE post.
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2014, 10:40:58 pm »
I've told no one it's fully reliable hence the huge beta tag, if people choose to start chinese whispers.... I don't know until I hear about them.

OK I can accept that it's beta. I'd just point out that when I raised concerns in another thread I was told:

Just use http://local.cva-eve.org/ and you immediately have an idea of who is KOS or not. Fast, reliable and with no errors (so far).

and:

http://local.cva-eve.org/ is as official as http://kos.cva-eve.org/ despite being beta. I therefore prefer it instead of any others for being accurate as looking manually with official checker.

so maybe I can be forgiven for expecting too much from it. What is worth pointing out is that the screen shot I took was NOT selected as a one-off. I think you will find that the internal logic of the KOS Checker is Alliance > Corp > Pilot, and that it will give a NOT KOS result in every case where the pilot is KOS but the corp and alliance are NOT KOS. This is a difference at a very fundamental level, and if I have done nothing more than draw attention to it, that in itself I hope is valuable.

Pilot level KOS are issued to those who abuse the system and create corps to try and evade KOS
If the guy is pilot level KOS and continues to make corporations to try and evade, he is still KOS...

I am actually glad to hear that. One of the biggest complaints brought to me is that Personal KOS pilots can clean their status by creating a one man player corp. I don't think that what you describe is totally clear from The Citadel MOTD which might be better worded "Previously KOS pilots in new 1 man corps are NOT KOS unless they continue to act aggressively, or they are the subject of a Personal KOS".

That deals with some of the cases encountered, but you specifically talk about players who create their own one man corp. What about the cases where a pilot listed Personal KOS joins a NOT KOS corp which is part of a NOT KOS alliance? They are not "creating their own corp to abuse the system" ... they are joining an entity that is already established and is NOT KOS. So would they be KOS or NOT KOS? If you prefer a specific example, would you regard Stellio Cantos in the images above as KOS or NOT KOS?

I appreciate your time looking at these questions - they are the ones I am asked repeatedly and which I am eager to answer correctly.



« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 10:55:57 pm by [.KVA.] Cherri Minoa »

Offline [TLOS] xHjfx

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Re: KOS Clarification: All rules in ONE post.
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2014, 01:35:38 am »
I've told no one it's fully reliable hence the huge beta tag, if people choose to start chinese whispers.... I don't know until I hear about them.

OK I can accept that it's beta. I'd just point out that when I raised concerns in another thread I was told:

Just use http://local.cva-eve.org/ and you immediately have an idea of who is KOS or not. Fast, reliable and with no errors (so far).

and:

http://local.cva-eve.org/ is as official as http://kos.cva-eve.org/ despite being beta. I therefore prefer it instead of any others for being accurate as looking manually with official checker.

so maybe I can be forgiven for expecting too much from it. What is worth pointing out is that the screen shot I took was NOT selected as a one-off. I think you will find that the internal logic of the KOS Checker is Alliance > Corp > Pilot, and that it will give a NOT KOS result in every case where the pilot is KOS but the corp and alliance are NOT KOS. This is a difference at a very fundamental level, and if I have done nothing more than draw attention to it, that in itself I hope is valuable.

Pilot level KOS are issued to those who abuse the system and create corps to try and evade KOS
If the guy is pilot level KOS and continues to make corporations to try and evade, he is still KOS...

I am actually glad to hear that. One of the biggest complaints brought to me is that Personal KOS pilots can clean their status by creating a one man player corp. I don't think that what you describe is totally clear from The Citadel MOTD which might be better worded "Previously KOS pilots in new 1 man corps are NOT KOS unless they continue to act aggressively, or they are the subject of a Personal KOS".

That deals with some of the cases encountered, but you specifically talk about players who create their own one man corp. What about the cases where a pilot listed Personal KOS joins a NOT KOS corp which is part of a NOT KOS alliance? They are not "creating their own corp to abuse the system" ... they are joining an entity that is already established and is NOT KOS. So would they be KOS or NOT KOS? If you prefer a specific example, would you regard Stellio Cantos in the images above as KOS or NOT KOS?

I appreciate your time looking at these questions - they are the ones I am asked repeatedly and which I am eager to answer correctly.

I can't speak for awg1 unfortunately.

Anyhow, it does appear the logic isn't implemented in the correct order which will be on the list of things to address, rewriting the codebase of the tool is actually on the cards at some point which may come sooner than later due to the pointed out issue in this thread.

A red pilot listed as personal KOS joining a non-KOS entity still remains KOS - there maybe special considerations or reimbursement requested from that pilot depending on the severity of their crimes that need to be addressed before they are off the list or it maybe a simple reset.


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Offline [IRNP] Cherri Minoa

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Re: KOS Clarification: All rules in ONE post.
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2014, 04:41:20 pm »
First of all I'd like to say a big thank you for looking at this. I am sure all of us who work on a daily basis to enable and enforce NRDS in Providence recognise the time and effort involved in the creation and maintenance of these tools, and the KOS administration in general. It really is appreciated.

Regarding a Personal KOS pilot who joins a (legitimate) NOT KOS entity, the way I understand it - and if I am reading you right you are saying the same - is that they are in a transitional or probationary state while relevant issues are discussed and any necessary horse trading is concluded. This being the case, it makes sense to keep the safety catches on until this process is concluded. In fact, regardless of whether or not we say they are technically KOS, we have to do so when we consider the implications. The pilot may be a former bad boy or girl who has renounced the dark side; more commonly it is where a member of a blue alliance has purchased a character as an alt. Whatever the reason, imagine if we actually treated them as KOS. They settle into their new home, they undock ... *bang* goes their ship ... *boom* goes their pod. Everyone in Provi is shooting them! Their own alliance is shooting them! Even members of their new corp are shooting them! It would be crazy, wouldn't it? Of course it would, and it doesn't happen. I would never encourage people to treat such a pilot as KOS, and I don't know of any intel channel moderator who would. In any case, it would be a bad move even for selfish reasons - as recent unfortunate incidents have shown, the Personal KOS pilot would have a valid claim for reimbursement.

What this means is that the new CVA Local KOS Checker - by using the priority sequence Alliance > Corp > Pilot  - is actually coming up with the correct result in terms of the way the KOS system is implemented. (Anyone who has stayed awake this far may have noticed that the same can be said of the original CVA KOS Checker, but I won't dwell on that point). I hope that this can be taken into account when any coding changes are being considered.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2014, 04:43:54 pm by [.KVA.] Cherri Minoa »

Offline [MW] Luna Amouh

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Re: KOS Clarification: All rules in ONE post.
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2014, 05:10:56 pm »
Corp > Alliance > Corp is IMHO the correct order to check.

If a pilot is personally KOS, i.e. (s)he did not just join the wrong corp/alliance but definitely was a bad boy himself, then the KOS should not just disappear because he joined a new (not KOS) Corp, especially not if it his own one man Corp.

The way I see it works the following way:
If his new Alliance/Corp is genuinely not KOS, then they can try to get the pilot reset through diplomatic channels. This might be granted or it might not. If the new Alliance/Corp does not even try to get the pilot reset (s)he will stay KOS.

If the (former KOS) pilot joins a blue alliance we operate under the assumption that the pilot renounced his evil ways and sufficient due diligence was performed. The pilot therefore will be removed from the KOS list.

Furthermore if a blue player purchases an alt and either does not check the KOS status or does not get the alt reset, he deserves his loss for gross stupidity.

I am admittedly not a KOS admin, but in my opinion this would be the common sense approach.

Offline [GAMCO] Arbitos

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Re: KOS Clarification: All rules in ONE post.
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2014, 12:56:39 am »
I am currently working on a windows based KOS tool which is written in c#, it is now in testing stages and I believe the logic behind the checker to be correct. I have spoke to KOS admins etc how it should be.

The tool works on PILOT > CORP > ALLIANCE, it also works for red by last corp if pilot is in an npc as well as allowing checks on corps and alliances. I've haad many sleepless nights trying to get he logic right, including a 2 day stint without sleep where I refused to go to bed until I had done (and broke it some more P).

it can be downloaded from here if you would like to check the logic  yourself (http://www.eve-fleet.net/blog/eve-online/fleet-kos-checker), I'd be more than willing to share the source code if you wanted to have a look at the logic behind the kos checker. I appreciate what a pain in the ass this thing is.

Edit: changed link to view example and screenshot of checker
« Last Edit: December 17, 2014, 06:33:07 pm by [GAMCO] Arbitos »

Offline [GAMCO] Arbitos

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Re: KOS Clarification: All rules in ONE post.
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2014, 01:00:50 am »
I also checked with the KOS admins during development regarding KOS by last corp and KOS by last alliance.

They don't operate it in the way that if a corp leaves an alliance, the alliance is red and the corp isn't listed, that the corp is red. The corp becomes neutral.